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Mar 10, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16	#41
glountz Jungle Guide Join Date: Nov 2005 Profession: W/Mo	I would be interesting if MoR was a maintained enchant, with reduced starting cost or recharge than it has now to compensate the loss of one energy pip. As a maintained enchant, you could remove it simply by clicking on it, thus gaining its energy when you need it and not when it ends naturally or by enchantment removal, without using CoP tricks which had side effect (like destroying the other enchant you may need to keep up).

Mar 10, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16	#42
ghostof Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: TV Profession: R/	Mo/Me Energy Management Energy Drain, Power Drain, Breeze, Prot Spirit, Boon, Orison of Healing, Mend Ailment, Inspired Hex (GvG) Purity (4vs4) You help e-denial while maintaining your energy I like using healing hands an find power drain and inspired hex to be enough for 4vs4 with wammo's in the arena's. You loose assisting in e-denial but you gain some much needed automatic healing plus an enchantment to strip with purity as it wears off for full health heal with boon/removing hexs. Hex removal should not be a monks role in 4vs4. That is other professions for arena's. Its hard enough healing, running and keeping hexes off yourselve. Let the warrior(s) do it himself with a wammo smiter or a w/me or bring a mesmer. Worked well for me. PD has the quick interrupt. I also used Ether Lord some. At 12 Inspire its +/- 3 along with a ED is fun e-denial. Once I ran down to 5 energy I would hit lord on them and ed them once I got the 5 back. ED's downfall is often finding a good target. As you need energy your target likely does as well because your healing there attacks. Thus stealing energy is harder then the PD which is an automatic 25 on interruption at 12. Also finding targets casting spells is easier then trying to figure out there energy.

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Mar 11, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

#43

Ensign

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Join Date: Dec 2004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

I guess my point here was that you don't need to select a secondary simply for energy management.

Well, the problem is that you still do. Not that Peace and Harmony spread amongst 3 monks is bad or anything, but it's still just a pip. They still need energy management. It's nice that it gives a bit more flexibility because it
frees up a slot on the other guys, but it still isn't sufficient for the most part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

It would only ever be run in a 3 monk team, in which all 3 monks will be within spell casting distance of each other, in other words, in HoH. But if the other two monks bring a non-elite energy management skill (completely destroying my point about freeing up you secondary, but still) they still have a free elite slot.

Well those other two monks could potentially use an efficiency elite (Word of Healing / Restore Conditions) and do fairly well. They'd probably still want to ride Channeling though. But yeah, having two monks constantly nearby to maintain P&H on, that's how this skill will see use if it ever does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

(This is question is NOT rhetorical) You don't think that having a few quick refreshing party wide enchantments would protect it? (or wouldn't be worth it?)

It's more the 'wouldn't be worth it' part. Peace and Harmony is really slow working. It really has to stay up for over a minute to be worth the investment of energy, time, and the slot. Any enchantment you put on top of it is likely to be much shorter in duration, require a significantly higher investment of energy, and realistically that enchantment is going to be a whole lot more important than the Peace and Harmony.

The only thing that's even close to a reasonable cover on its own is Vigorous Spirit, and that's going to eat up half of the returns of the skill. You can cover P&H with a maintained enchantment but that doesn't even pay for the maintenence, pluse recast costs (you'd have to recast the cover every time to put it back on top of P&H).

The only sort of covers that would be relevant are flashing Orders of Pain and Dark Furies, but from experience getting anything close to 100% uptime on either of those is not terribly practical. You'd certainly need to be getting a lot of benefit out of those offensively to justify the costs.

In fact the few occasions in the past where Peace and Harmony has come up in the past has been as a chaff enchantment, as something cheap and long lasting that can gunk up enchantment removal and protect more important enchantments. Of course that use gets destroyed by the hideous recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

The fragile part is what I was saying, and if by 300% uptime you mean 3 people having it on for the entire duration, then thats what I'm saying as well.

Right, I want it to stick on 3 people consistently before I'd want to use it, in a vacuum. If I could force it onto two monks with a guy who didn't need to net energy, though, I'd consider it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

If by grief build you just mean a team that goes in and hopes the other team will leave because they don't die

Well, Hall of Heroes. You don't have to kill anything there. It's the lamest map in the entire game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

Again, I think that even the way it is now, a decent 3 monk backline can be made in which PnH is a good choice for one of the characters. It wont be the best build out there, and it will be very specific, but it will be good, and for the one guy there wont be a better elite skill to choose.

I don't think that's possible right now because the recharge kills it. The one place where I can see wanting it is on a Life Bonder. You already manage your energy with Blessed Signet, you have high Divine Favor, and you really don't need your elite, so you could be Peace and Harmony man to toss that on the other two monks in a 3-backline. But again enchantment removal smashes it because of that nasty recharge. At 15s recharge it's be kinda attractive though because you wouldn't be outright hosed by a single Drain Enchantment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilasTheGreat

Word of Healing > All energy management elites (besides ether prodigy)

Word of Healing *is* an energy management elite. I think it's pretty strong in a warrior and domination-mesmer environment, where it's efficiency and strength against edenial is really key, but in other environments active emanagement is stronger because those let you power out more Infuse Healths or Heal Parties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Generally PaH is useless, I think Charles and I had this discussion before release. The argument for PaH is the synergy with DF and the possible multiple use, but I can think of a situation where you can't get better use elsewhere.

Yeah, we've talked about it quite a bit. In all honesty I think the only problem is the recharge. If you could spread it around reliably and keep it on two guys you wanted to feed energy to it'd have some utility, but because it recharges so bloody slowly you just can't keep it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

While that is important, I think people would make more headway if they learned to heal in a more energy efficient manner.

Absolutely. Overhealing is the biggest sin of a monk and poor use of energy is one of the reasons teams always overload on monks. The other is that non-monks do not take any sort of responsibility for the team's survival for the most part. Kiting and not bunching up in AoE can save you a monk's worth of healing without a single spell being cast. A few active measures of their own (block stances, Healing Signet, Troll Unguent) give energy straight to the monks in healing and protection they don't have to do.

But monks are definitely not smart about their energy and it artificially creates the need for more monks. For example most monks in PvE are Orison of Healing spammers, and they don't even wait to get full efficiency out of it, they fire it off on someone at the first hint of damage. That's terrible. A guy at 80% health isn't in danger of dying in PvE, don't bother healing him, just let the damage sit there until you can heal it efficiently. Orison of Healing is the least efficient skill on your bar, don't use it unless your other options aren't available. That's a bit of a change from how most people normally monk, eh?

Peace,
-CxE

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Mar 11, 2006, 02:25 AM // 02:25	#44
snikerz Krytan Explorer Join Date: Dec 2005 Profession: Rt/A	just a quick question: wat are the "numbers" for Glyph of Renewal + Divine Spirit, i know it takes up 2 slots, but seems to work nice.

Mar 11, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26	#45
Red Locust Site Contributor Join Date: May 2005	The GoR + DS combo is really fragile. You've got a really large startup cost, you're extremely vulnerable to enchant stripping, and you've got no way of actually boosting your energy once it's low, meaning a mesmer can easily lock you out of using it. But the numbers would be pretty good, I'd imagine.

Mar 11, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05	#46
AlienFromBeyond Jungle Guide Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: Heros of Titans Realm [HotR] Profession: W/	This is like, the third thread/page that I've read on this topic, and one thing has been bugging me the entire time. A lot of them seem to assume that you will have an off-hand + wand/staff that benefits your energy management skill rather than all of your other skills. I'm starting to doubt whether I should have kept Kephket's Refuge for my new monk. Also, an off-topic question, but why is it that I never see anyone talking about non-bonder prot monks in PvE in the monk forum? I want to put aforementioned Kephket's Refuge to good use and was wondering what others do.

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Mar 11, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

#47

JR

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Join Date: Nov 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by snikerz

just a quick question:

wat are the "numbers" for Glyph of Renewal + Divine Spirit, i know it takes up 2 slots, but seems to work nice.

GoR+DS is impossible to work out. It depends exactly on how much you cast whilst DS is up.

Luckily, like P&H, it's also just trashy enough to not be worth calculating anyway.

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Mar 11, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27	#48
rii Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK	depends on how much you cast... but maintaining it is 3 pips isnt it? (10 energy ds + 5 energy glyph = 15 energy per 15s.... 3 pips). That means to use no energy whatsoever outside of natural regen (and you cant get much more without an elite and mo/e) youve got a pip to work with... 1 energy every 3 seconds... even when your orison (e.g.) costs 1 energy... ok... you can spam orison continually... nothing else... and dont pack any recharge/casting mods or youll eventually burn yourself out :/

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Mar 11, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

#49

shadex

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Join Date: Mar 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

GoR+DS is impossible to work out. It depends exactly on how much you cast whilst DS is up.

Luckily, like P&H, it's also just trashy enough to not be worth calculating anyway.

P&H is not trashy. A healing monk with a warrior heavy group should have vig spirit on them. 1 vig spirit means you can't strip P&H. If your a boon prot monk, you have guardian, aegis, reversal, boon and shielding hands to cover it if need be. There are only a handfull of strip all enchantment spells. Lingering curse and rend enchatments seem to be the really beefy ones. If lingering is on you, you need to remove it or your dead, if the target rends you, they are near death most likely.

OOB is nearly useless because a monk should always be beaten on, and if the target spikes during or right after you use oob your dead. The drain enchantment/hex power drain is very nice but doesn't provide the energy that P&H puts out consistantly. With a 20% half recharge wand and 20% focus item your at about 40% of the time with a ~20 sec recast. You dont need to maintain it, and its always up. MoC is constantly striped just as P&H is. The only real difference is that when MoC is striped it can make the whole spell useless, as people general strip in the first 20 secounds of a fight.

GoR +DS is nice, but your still sacing 10-15 energy every 15-20 secounds, and still have to bring along a 20% enchanting staff and or keep up blessed aura. Thus taking 3 slots and or forcing a staff, or ineffecient weapon. The other main problem is that it's only really effective if your spaming fast casting low recharge spells, like RoF, Draw Condtions, etc. It does work wonders if you can get a ranger and drop a spirit with divine spirit, you can pull the cost down to 5 mana a heal party for a HP/Warder.

With the amount of monks that use holy viel, i would also think that P&H would be covered by that as well. Honestly i prefer P&H for that reason, i can keep it up for the majority of any scurmish, and i can cast it on another monk if i get a quick recast. I find it better energy management then just about anything else, as nearly all of them either cost mana to get mana, have a cast time and recharge time, and can pull you out of a fight, and can have you drained in the middle of a fight.

I think your idea of P&H being constantly removed is weak. I've yet to go against groups in GVG, HOH, or TA/RA that have more then 1 guy who removes all enchantments. And if thats the best arguement for P&H being shitty then you might as well take out MoC from that list.

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Mar 11, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

#50

JR

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Quote:

Originally Posted by shadex

I think your idea of P&H being constantly removed is weak. I've yet to go against groups in GVG, HOH, or TA/RA that have more then 1 guy who removes all enchantments. And if thats the best arguement for P&H being shitty then you might as well take out MoC from that list.

You still get the benefit from Mantra of Recall, even if it does get removed. You don't with P&H. You may not get it when you want it, but you do get it.

And it is fairly obvious you have yet to GvG against a decent team. As soon as it was called that you were using P&H, we would be stripping it as soon as you put it up every time. Suddenly your Elite energy management is just fueling our Drain Enchants. Even if you did manage to get off a cover on it, that is just asking to be drained aswell.

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Mar 11, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

#51

lennymon

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Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

BTW another skill worth actual consideration is power drain, i feel its just as conditional as drain enchant

yer kidding right? If you, as a monk, has enough time to camp an opposing caster waiting for a good interrupt with anything approaching usefull frequency, you DON'T need energy management to win. The only exception to this would be as a bonder, and drain enchant or inspired hex are still vastly superior.

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Mar 11, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

#52

JR

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Originally Posted by lennymon

you DON'T need energy management to win.

You can win without energy management on your monks, yes. You will lose more though.

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Mar 11, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

#53

wheel

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Join Date: Jun 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond

This is like, the third thread/page that I've read on this topic, and one thing has been bugging me the entire time. A lot of them seem to assume that you will have an off-hand + wand/staff that benefits your energy management skill rather than all of your other skills. I'm starting to doubt whether I should have kept Kephket's Refuge for my new monk.

Also, an off-topic question, but why is it that I never see anyone talking about non-bonder prot monks in PvE in the monk forum? I want to put aforementioned Kephket's Refuge to good use and was wondering what others do.

The reason behind using energy management recharge items is because as a monk, your primary concern is going to be energy. If you aren't able to cast RoF, it's more likely that it's due to the fact that you're out of energy rather than you're waiting for it to recharge. The new green staff is good for PvE prot monks & bonders, pretty much.

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Mar 12, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

#54

Rustjive

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Join Date: Feb 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by shadex

P&H is not trashy. A healing monk with a warrior heavy group should have vig spirit on them.

...what?

Quote:

If your a boon prot monk

Go ahead, try and run a boon prot with P&H. At 25 energy gained after a minute and a half, it's about as bad of a choice you can make for a boon prot.

Quote:

OOB is nearly useless because a monk should always be beaten on, and if the target spikes during or right after you use oob your dead.

Team Arenas and Competition Arena is not the only context we're referring to these skills in. The monk doesn't and shouldn't 'always be beaten on', and regardless, with established numbers provided by wheel, there's a way to refer to how 'useless' it is. 1.71 pips - or .86 pips more than Peace and Harmony, with no virtually chance of interruption and no chance of stripping.

Quote:

The drain enchantment/hex power drain is very nice but doesn't provide the energy that P&H puts out consistantly.

No, drain enchantment provides more. Please, please, please don't be ignorant and read. "Energy Pips: 1.172545281". That is .32 pips more than P&H.

Quote:

MoC is constantly striped just as P&H is. The only real difference is that when MoC is striped it can make the whole spell useless, as people general strip in the first 20 secounds of a fight.

How does that make it useless? 20 seconds later, you cast it again. Peace and Harmony? Wait 10 more seconds...

Quote:

I find it better energy management then just about anything else, as nearly all of them either cost mana to get mana, have a cast time and recharge time, and can pull you out of a fight, and can have you drained in the middle of a fight.

Peace and Harmony costs 5 mana. I'm sure you're referring to the fact that you can cast and forget, but in GvGs, battles will often last longer than a minute. So please don't disregard costs because you feel like it.

Quote:

I think your idea of P&H being constantly removed is weak. I've yet to go against groups in GVG, HOH, or TA/RA that have more then 1 guy who removes all enchantments. And if thats the best arguement for P&H being shitty then you might as well take out MoC from that list.

How is it weak? Enchantment removal is a legitimate point. You can't remove EDrain, nor can you remove OoB. The fact that P&H can be removed can only be detrimental to its case.

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Mar 13, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09	#55
Zeal Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Guild: Isin Pikku Tytot Profession: R/E	P&H is the best Skill in PvE to maintain your energy but it doesn´t work that well in PvP becouse it's being removed too often. U need a skill what gives u energy allmost 100% shure like OOB

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Mar 13, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

#56

JR

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Originally Posted by Zeal

P&H is the best Skill in PvE to maintain your energy but it doesn´t work that well in PvP becouse it's being removed too often. U need a skill what gives u energy allmost 100% shure like OOB

Not that this is really relavent to the discussion, but how is it the best skill in PvE?

I would much rather stand back and use OoB while the tanks take agro, and not have to heal the sacrafices every time. Why would I run a gimped elite that gives you a bad energy return?

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Mar 13, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53	#57
Zeal Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Guild: Isin Pikku Tytot Profession: R/E	Works just fine. Gives me 100sec of PnH so it's just fine.

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Mar 13, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

#58

lennymon

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Originally Posted by JR-

You can win without energy management on your monks, yes. You will lose more though.

what I meant was, If you can win with power drain as your energy management, then you don't need energy management to win.
Implying that the opponent is weak enough that energy management is not an issue.

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Mar 13, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37	#59
doma Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: USA Guild: Circles of Honor Profession: Mo/Me	Great discussion. I've actually tried to make a go of PaH in GvG and found it's better in practice than it is on paper. Will I run it? No. Cause it really does suck in the end. ...But I'm pleased to say I gave it an honest try. Some interesting 'positive' observations I made when I did try it out: 1) I rarely had it stripped since I buried it under boon/veil. Unaware/unskilled opponents maybe, who knows... 2) With +20% enchant staff and high DF, it's nearly 100sec. The set and forget aspect is actually nice. Less foraging, less worrying about your next energy meal. There's something to be said for that that won't fall out on a spreadsheet. 3) Not requiring any investment in a third attribute allows the 2 attribs build to be a more efficient setup. However, I haven't run the numbers with the higher DF/PP stats, so I'm not certain if it's even a arguable point. And since I'm done considering it, I don't feel compelled to justify using it. 4) The prot spells also have a nice synergy with the 20% enchant staff, as opposed to OoB useage where we carried blood recharge items to boost OoB recharge by 36% and forfeited the enchant boost benefit. Now, the prot numbers really can't be easily quantified, imo. How do you quantify the benefit of a +4 sec (or whatever) prot spirit or a 6 sec guadian? Could it save a big heal or even a kill? Maybe... In the end, though, my complaint with PaH is that it just doesn't give enough of a return. It's not even playing the same game OoB (r.i.p.) was playing and MoR or E-Drain are playing now. Too bad I say. MoR works ok-ish when things go according to plan. But, like a previous poster (JR?) mentioned, it absolutely sucks when you get behind and I have big trouble getting outta debt - which is when you need it the most. So, for me, e-drain+ih sorta worked themselves out as the most practical and useful combo in the end. I does require more positional awareness of nearby casters and you do have to spend time foraging periodically (which is inconvenient), which is a good skill to develop for many reasons... As other posters have touched on, as important as they are, statistics only tell part of the story - what holds up under use has merit in discussions as well, even if a hard number cannot be ascribed to it.

Mar 16, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43	#60
Tortoise Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: Daunting Tempest Profession: Mo/	Just a quick note on GoR - DS: if you do the numbers then it is by far the most superior choice for energy management. The 15 energy sac cost is only a problem against an e-denial mesmer and even then swapping between energy sets can easily net you the required energy. Note that once you got the DS on you can basically keep casting and there is not an e-denial mesmer in the world that is gonna stop you. Also note that you can always cast a new DS while under it's influence meaning you'll only have to use 10 energy to cast it. Oh and have I mentioned it doesn't require you sinking attribute points in a third attribute line? The public seems to think it's biggest con is enchant strips. Dealing with them can however easily be done, especially if you're using GoR-DS combo on a prot monk. Even if you consistently layer your DS with a prot spirit the GoR-DS combo will still gain you a lot more energy then any other form of energy management. A good GoR-DS monk can cope with a drain enchant. My biggest problem with GoR-DS is that it takes up two skill slots. In HA a simple channeling is usually good enough when it comes to energy management. In GvG GoR-DS is really only an option when you're running a three monk backline. GoR-DS is pretty great but a bit limited in use because of the space it takes up un your skill bar.

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